Rabbi Zalman and Ken Wilber - God in the 21st Century. Part 1. If God Is Not Great, Which God Are You Talking About?

God in the 21st Century. Part 1. If God Is Not Great, Which God Are You Talking About? (27:00)

Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi and Ken Wilber

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Two of today's most accomplished "wise men" discuss the current atmosphere of attack on all things spiritual, and how a more compassionate and integral spirituality could change the tone of this crucial conversation.

Who: Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, founder of the Jewish Renewal and Spiritual Eldering movements, and Ken Wilber, founder of Integral Spiritual Center and author of Integral Spirituality.

Relevance: Led by individuals such as Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, the contemporary debate about "Is god necessary?" has captured national attention—but how sophisticated is this dialogue, really? Two of today's finest "wise men" explore how a more comprehensive, compassionate, and integral discussion of spirituality in the 21st century might move forward.

Summary: Does the fact that Moses didn't literally part the Red Sea mean that all spiritual and religious concerns are null, void, and illusory? This seems to be what a growing chorus of voices is saying, and whether cheering or jeering, the world is paying attention. Of course, it's not exactly a feat of extraordinary intellectual achievement to point out, for example, the fact that Jesus could not have been born of a biological virgin, nor could Lao Tzu have been 900 years old when he was born. As Reb Zalman mentions, it reads in the Zohar (one of the central texts of Jewish Kabbalah), "Anybody who reads the stories of the Bible as if they were literal stories has never entered into the real kingdom."

As notoriously stated in the title of Christopher Hitchens' latest book, God Is Not Great, a question conveniently ignored may be one of the most important: what god are we talking about here? Ken goes on to mention that "god" has at least two major dimensions in human experience, one in states of consciousness and one in structures of consciousness, and taken together, there are at least several dozen different meanings of "god," all of which are real and meaningful to different people. So which god is not great? And if you can persuasively argue that one particular god is not so great (at least to you), does that mean the other several dozen god-meanings are kaput? It is these kinds of questions with which Reb Zalman and Ken wrestle—but not so that they can attempt to demolish the "opposing view." There is room enough in a truly world-centric and integral spirituality for all views, so long as they don't themselves try and eradicate views other than their own.

Reb Zalman and Ken go on to talk about the empirically rigorous nature of contemplative training, the fact that the scientific method itself is necessarily agnostic, the two hands of Spirit (manifest and un-manifest), and the utter importance of never forgetting the true Heart of compassion to all those with whom we share this precious human birth.

Why Integral?: An Integral Approach to spirituality is the first approach to explore in detail the difference between states of consciousness and structures of consciousness, and how development can unfold in each dimension of human experience. This is quite possibly the most significant contribution to our understanding of human nature in decades, because the explanatory power of the Integral View as a whole is simply unrivaled. Integral doesn't change the content of human experience, it helps contextualize and explain the content that is already there. Particularly when it comes to the realm of spirituality, religion, and ultimate concern—even if that ultimate concern is scientific materialism—the possibilities for division and strife are nearly endless. An Integral Approach shows how there really is room in the Kosmos for everyone, and how the Good, the True, and the Beautiful actually evolve and develop into ever-more inclusive, complex, and radiant forms.

To learn more about how an Integral Approach can be applied to spirituality, see the essay "What Is Integral Spirituality," the book Integral Spirituality, and the learning community at Integral Spiritual Center (where Rabbi Zalman is a founding member and teacher).

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(To check out Reb Zalman's other audio and video appearances on Integral Naked, a dozen in all, click here.)

keywords: Jewish Renewal, Spiritual Eldering, Yotam Schachter, scientific materialism, Kabbalah, Hasidim, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Integral Spirituality, Eye to Eye, eye of flesh, eye of mind, eye of spirit, string theory, Gaia, Trungpa Rinpoche, Sufism, stages of consciousness (e.g., archaic, magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic, integral, super-integral), altitude of consciousness (magenta, red, amber, orange, green, teal, turquoise, indigo, violet, ultraviolet), Integral Spiritual Center, Intelligent Design, Gurdjieff, LSD, shamanic experiences, "What Is Integral?," A Theory of Everything.

most memorable moment: "This simple statement shows why strict scientific materialism doesn't work: 'I love my spouse.' Ok, so prove it. You can't, and yet you know it's real. Such is often the case when it comes to God and Spirit…."

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