 02 May 2006, 1:11 PM
|
Balder
 
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 582
|
The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
|
Someone mentioned in a recent post that Wilber had made a casual remark in a video about the creation or emergence of a new religion. I have also noticed similar language in a few places, including on the new Integral Spiritual Center website. AQAL provides a way of looking at (and potentially invigorating) various traditions individually, and also of relating them to one another. But with the emergence of preferred ILP practices (including new perspective-based exercises); specialized terms; novel variations on traditional concepts; a hierarchy of teachers, initiates, and neophytes; a group of organizations dedicated to communicating the Integral vision to society; and so on, the transformation of Integral into a religion in its own right appears to be a distinct possibility. What do you think of this? Do you see signs of it? What concerns and issues does it raise? Is it necessarily a negative development, or might it also be positive? I have some thoughts on this, but wanted to leave this generally open and to invite your input. Best wishes, Balder
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 5:13 PM
|
MichaelD
Joined on 01-13-2006
northern ca
Posts 373
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
|
Well this IS an interesting development. Very surprising yet not surprising somehow. Actually, I’d most value yours and Mary’s opinions on this Bruce. I regard you two as our resident experts on matters of religion. But if the price for your thoughts is the presentation of my own, I will just say that the idea alarms me and saddens me mainly. But not overwhelmingly. I know there is a good deal of wisdom tucked away amidst the current messiness going on in the ‘integral’ realms these days…it seems like all I see anymore is messiness everywhere, so that’s probably the current lens I’m using to view most new developments… I consider myself a rank novice in matters of religion, with a strong conditioned bias against, but I am also very interested in the social-cultural aspects, and will look on from that perspective…
|
|
| |
 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 5:49 PM
|
Helene
Joined on 01-13-2006
Here There Everywhere
Posts 1,142
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
|
A New Religion?
Here's a snippit from Dr. Clark Pinnock's : Flame Of Love -A Theology Of The Holy Spirit - which seems quite heart warming...
It is possible on the basis of the particularity of Christ to propose a global theology. God has not left himself without witness anywhere, though he has revealed himself definitively in one particular human life. Moral and spirirtual worth can be found in other faiths, yet God's revelation in Christ is of surpassing value, normative in relation to general revelation and universal significance. Jesus is the incarnation of God, but the Spirit also sustains human relationship with God broadly. On this basis, we expect the Spirit to be drawing humanity into the range of Christ's saving work everywhere.
Spirit, present in the whole world and at work among all peoples, is at work in the sphere of religious life, so that all religious experience may play a prepatory role for the coming of Christ.
H
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 6:13 PM
|
Plasmafly
Joined on 01-13-2006
Boulder CO
Posts 604
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
Religion implies something that is separate from ones life, rather than a mode of life itself. I think it would be great if Integral started to merge the idea of spirituality as being inseparable from any part, faction or aspect of life. If Integral some how intimated that it was a form of secular spirituality that divinized atoms and atomized spirit. If Integral gets lost in the myth of its own self importance and forgets the world's need for a particular type of growth beyond religions that divide and cause wars and suffering, then calling Integral a religion might be useful in the beginning stages. The thing to watch out for tho is the egos tendency to use the specialness of the integral-"difference" to feed ones own power drive. This will give Integral as bad a name in the end as Nazism. Unless the Integral movement feels to the rest of the world like it is welcoming, inviting and including then it will flop like all other protectionist theos-bubbles. Thus integral must be an expanding thoughtform, not a self-reinforcing defensive one.
Big Fun is Nomind, Flow, “I and the Father are one,” Noself; and the only thing standing in the way of Big Fun is fear.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 6:56 PM
|
elementstew
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 553
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
Oh God, save us from your followers.
I was a proponent for the establishment of a new "integral religion" (which is really post-religeous because religion is blue) a couple of years ago. I have lots of reservations about it now. It would be good (in my view) if it weren't too structured and was aligned with my perceptions about the higher ends of morality. Those higher ends are post-secular/materialistic, P2P, democraticly and transparently based.
www.integralwiki.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 8:13 PM
|
Plasmafly
Joined on 01-13-2006
Boulder CO
Posts 604
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
A religion is only as good as its participants.
I have been watching the video series, The Ascent of Man again and it struck me today that humanity is the shit-slinging-ape. We protect, preserve and uphold ourselves through slinging usually verbal shit at each other, or even just thinking it. Seems to me any higher-religion must be above this basic nature...that is a good place to start in generating the higher ends of morality. Lets build some tenets or maxims for this religion...
1. First do No harm.
2. Compassionate action for the greatest depth and the largest span.
3. Thou shall not throw shit.
Big Fun is Nomind, Flow, “I and the Father are one,” Noself; and the only thing standing in the way of Big Fun is fear.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 11:11 PM
|
maryw
Joined on 01-13-2006
Southern California
Posts 519
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
 Balder wrote: | | the transformation of Integral into a religion in its own right appears to be a distinct possibility. What do you think of this? Do you see signs of it? |
|
I like George Saint-Laurent's definition of religion as "the pursuit of transformation under the impact of a sacred worldview."
Under that definition it certainly seems that Integral is becoming a religion -- or a kind of meta-religion or "religion of religions" since it's attempting to integrate several sacred worldviews.
One potential negative is that it could, for some, become a kind of "cafeteria-style" or pastiche religion where one picks and chooses certain methods and practices without having any solid rooting in one path. While I think it's great to draw on practices and insights from multiple traditions, there is the danger that people could end up with a weak, shallow, pseudo-spirituality as they pick and choose bits and pieces of what they like from the various religions. People could end up with a kind of watered-down mishmash of religion that fails to be transformative. I still think it's best, if possible, to have a deep grounding in one tradition and then, from that depth, to develop a relationship with other sacred worldviews. But I'm also learning that this is not feasible for everyone.
A potential positive is that we could have a flowering of interreligious dialogue that assists the development and transformation of the traditions (and of course the people of the traditions) themselves. The spiritual teachers that I've personally been most impressed with are the ones who are in dialogue with one or two traditions beyond their own -- and who have allowed those traditions to speak to them, even to change them, at a deep level. Through these interspiritual teachers (and teachings) we can catch some illuminative and transformative glimpses of the One Source from which all wisdoms spring. Over time, a truly integral spirituality, nourished by various sacred (and profane  ) worldviews, might emerge.
My thoughts for the moment.
Mary W.
groove is in the heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 11:16 PM
|
jimtzu
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 169
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
i'm not sure if it's good or bad, or if it's even true. but if it is, perhaps he's going after the tax exempt status to help allieve any financial problems? we all know that religion in that sense is a big money maker.
brings to mind the saying: religion is for people afraid of hell, spirituality is for people who've already been there....
http://www.myspace.com/homecookinstudios ------------------------------------------------------
silence is the language of god, everything else is just a poor translation. FTK
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
02 May 2006, 11:25 PM
|
Balder
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 582
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
The language on the Integral Spiritual Center website does not specifically talk about the creation of a new religion, but it does talk about birthing "the face of tomorrow's spirituality" and "the shape of future religion." (I don't know who wrote the copy on that site, but its sophomoric poetry makes me cringe a little. I hope they work on that!) I'm not sure what comment the other poster heard that made him or her think that Wilber was talking about actually wanting to create a new religion. But whether or not Wilber intends to do such a thing, I realized -- just thinking about the question -- that a number of pieces are indeed falling into place that would make that development quite easy.
There have been a number of attempts to create a universal "path" for humanity, integrating former religious ideas into a greater holistic vision (holistic for the time), and they have all been ended up as just another religion in the spiritual marketplace. Christianity arguably synthesized Jewish tradition with some of the Hellenic philosophical ideals that prevailed at the time, allowing gentiles (Greeks and Romans) into a "fold" which would discriminate against neither gentile nor Jew, slave nor free, woman nor man. Sikhism sought to integrate the mystical elements of Hinduism and Islam in a new, universal path. Baha'ullah, of course, desired to unite the religions of the world under the umbrella of a single, cosmic revelation. Swami Satchidananda and Meher Baba have preached similar visions of universal embrace of the great cosmic streams of enlightenment. Krishnamurti attempted to discredit and demolish organized religion altogether, and in its place to provide a universal, non-sectarian, non-dogmatic approach to spirituality for all humankind. Within the Christian church, there are dozens of examples of (nominally non-denominational!) denominations labeling themselves the "united" this or that, attempting to unite Christians beyond sectarian boundaries. But each non-denominational movement, like all of the other movements I've mentioned, has ended up as just another thread in this great tapestry of human spirituality.
In recent conversations with both Christians and non-Christians, I have met enough resistance to what Wilber is attempting with his Integral project -- including rejection of his characterization of Christian, Buddhist, or Hindu beliefs within the framework of AQAL, for instance -- that I expect "integrally informed" versions of these venerable traditions will likely become new denominations or sects in themselves, at least for a number of years or perhaps generations. As long as there are Blue, Orange, or Green Christians, Buddhists, etc, they are likely to resist Yellow attempts at integration, and therefore the new "integral products" may actually contribute to further fragmentation and sectarian division within those traditions themselves!
I'm sure Wilber is well aware of this, and doesn't expect otherwise. (Though the language of ISC has such a strong universalist and absolutist tone -- intimating that this project is the only way towards the birth of future spirituality -- that it is easy to get the impression that a universal integration of all religions, at all levels, is intended.)
As I suggested in the opening post, another option besides the integral "seeding" of existing traditions, is for Integral to emerge as a religious movement in its own right -- replete with a (post)-metaphysical cosmology, unique terminology and interpretations of traditional ideas, a core spiritual praxis, a hierarchical (or holarchical) political structure, institutions for the dissemination of its teachings, a mechanism for insuring orthodoxy (trademarks?), etc. This may already be underway, as students of Integral take up the same regimen of practices and begin to normalize social and cultural modes of interaction.
I'm writing off the top of my head here, and haven't thought long and hard about this, so forgive me if this is a little "simple." I'm just exploring the idea and seeing what seems likely (to me). I haven't commented on the upsides or downsides to these developments, but I'll probably weigh in on that when I have a little more time.
Best wishes,
Balder
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
03 May 2006, 7:41 AM
|
Helene
Joined on 01-13-2006
Here There Everywhere
Posts 1,142
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
I like the way Clark Pinnock, in his -Flame of Love- simply presents very complex ideas....which to my ear sound 'universal'.
"Jesus represented humanity in such a way that what took place in him could be repeated in us."
In closing words , he says thus: The book reflects my own faith journey. The spiritual vitality so evident in Scripture is rare and thin in the religious circles I inhabit. The athmosphere is restrained and the style highly cognitive; expectations are rather low regarding the presence of the kingdom in power. So I thirst to experience the reality of Spirit in my heart and church. I am tired of spirtless Christianity with only rumors and occasional glimpses of wonder and signs. But I am glad to report that in the course of writing my heart has been blessed. I have caught the fire again.
...
Nobody has all the answers - I certainly do not. But one way to make progress is to look at issues in a new way and enter into conversation. Theology does not depend on any single theologian. Truth will yield its sercets to the body of Christ if we will listen to God and to one another humbly, accepting correction.
H
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
03 May 2006, 8:53 AM
|
Balder
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 582
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
|
Mary, Well said! Yes, I agree with your assessment of the positive and negative potentials of Integral becoming a religion, or becoming religion-like. Merton and others have warned against cafeteria-style spirituality -- even while themselves being deeply engaged in interfaith dialogue and even experimenting with practices from other faith traditions. I see the opening of ISC as a further step in the mystically informed interfaith encounter initiated by Merton and other monastics (and of course by non-Christian visionaries such as Ramakrishna). I am deeply interested in interfaith dialogue and fully support what ISC is attempting to do. "Teach the teachers" is inspired, I think, by the same understanding that has driven the intermonastic encounters: the deepest meeting will take place, naturally, among those who have traveled most deeply in their own traditions. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that there is a common spiritual reality that unites us all. But just thinking about the general way these things develop, particularly now that there are Integral practices, retreats, classes, and budding communities, I think it's important to reflect on the potential of Integral to become a religion in its own right, over and above (or alongside) the impulse to work closely with multiple existing traditions. Best wishes, Balder
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
03 May 2006, 9:02 AM
|
Balder
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 582
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
Helen, I like some of the ideas and sentiments expressed by the authors you are quoting, but think the Christian "fulfillment" approach to interfaith dialogue is outmoded. When Christians first opened to respectful dialogue with non-Christian traditions (moving away from a position which viewed all other traditions as Satanically inspired), the prevailing perspective was that non-Christian traditions are natural (human) systems of limited value, but Christianity is a supernatural system which represents the fulfillment of all the "types and shadows" of previous or subsequent traditions. But now there has been a shift towards a more truly pluralistic perspective in Christian interfaith circles, which does not demand that Christianity (or Christ) be seen as the pinnacle of all other faiths, while also not ignoring its unique gifts and perspectives.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
03 May 2006, 1:12 PM
|
Balder
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 582
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
|
Well, darn it. Three posts in a row on your own thread may mean there ain't gonna be any life in it. Stewie, you mentioned that religion is essentially Blue. That gave me pause. I understand where you're coming from: all the great world religions emerged when human society was deep in Blue, or shifting into Blue out of Red. Mythic membership has been the name of the game for many of the great traditions, at least for the majority of their members. But I question whether Buddhism, for example, was ever a "strictly Blue" tradition. The Mulamadhyamikakarika is not a Blue document, in my opinion - certainly not a Blue level of cognition. (Hell, Blue couldn't even pronounce the title.) It seems to me that the great "Blue" organizations and structures provided incubators for the growth of higher levels of development, at least on an individual basis, for some of the members of those traditions. Today, I think you can find enclaves, and sometimes larger movements, of Orange, Green, and Yellow Christians, for instance. Even within the traditionally Blue church (such as in some Catholic monasteries), or sometimes in more "postmodern" organizations (like the looser, less centralized, more autonomous home-based movements that members are calling the "postmodern church.") What do you all think? Can religion survive the second tier? How will it change? If Integral becomes a religion, what will that look like?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
03 May 2006, 1:45 PM
|
MichaelD
Joined on 01-13-2006
northern ca
Posts 373
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
|
Hey Balder, I’m really digging the conversation so far, and have learned much from your posts already. Part of my interest is in the rather abstract notion of a post-post-modern religion being formulated deliberately and self-consciously right before our eyes. Quite a notion when you stop and think about it… For my part, I’m afraid you’re far more likely to find me nailing a manifesto on the church door rather than kneeling in a pew. I really can’t abide the belief-follower-doctrine business. Just doesn’t work for me. But as a communal foray into the numinous and sacred, I’m all attention… I’d love it if you were inclined to elaborate on these points: | Balder wrote: | | As I suggested in the opening post, another option besides the integral "seeding" of existing traditions, is for Integral to emerge as a religious movement in its own right -- replete with a (post)-metaphysical cosmology, unique terminology and interpretations of traditional ideas, a core spiritual praxis, a hierarchical (or holarchical) political structure, institutions for the dissemination of its teachings, a mechanism for insuring orthodoxy (trademarks?), etc. This may already be underway, as students of Integral take up the same regimen of practices and begin to normalize social and cultural modes of interaction. |
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
03 May 2006, 2:36 PM
|
elementstew
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 553
|
Re: The Integral Church of AQAL: A New Religion?
|
|
|
Balder, check out the talk with KW and AC, Evolutionary Spirituality in which they outline the three major historical spiritual orientations, Pagan, Transcendental and Nondual. I think that they were on the right track with that one and imo, an integral spirituality would honor and embrace all three.
www.integralwiki.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|